005. A Prologue with Nancy Wu: The State of Design Education


Full Transcript
Recorded 5.24.2019, Aired 7.5.2019

0:00:00 [bumper with sound effects]

0:00:07 [teaser intro]

Nancy: I've always been a kind of a curious person and if there's something you don't know that's OK. Find out what it is. Never stop learning never stop asking questions or being curious. We all have someone who helped us along the way is getting there. It's that kind of thing that happened a lot where you couldn't get a job because you had no experience. And it's like well how can you get experience of normal. Give me a job like it's that vicious cycle that we'll hate. There's different experiences that we have in life whether it be work or life related. You pick up all the good stuff along the way you keep it your heart and the stuff that wasn't good or wasn't helpful. Ignore it throw it out and there's a sheet to your.

0:00:30 [music intro]

0:00:33 [guest bio]

Pete: Joining me on this episode of the design podcast is Nancy Woo. Nancy is an instructor at the IDEA School of Design at Capilano University. She is also senior graphic designer and art director at Nancy Wu design. Nancy and I discussed the importance of design school choices as well as the importance and criticalness of internships and were internships fit into the design curriculum, and we've even found the time to talk about the importance of community in the design school. Nancy and I have also found the time to talk about the path that print has taken in the design world as well as the importance of digital in today's profession. I hope you enjoy this great conversation between Nancy and I, and I hope you find a lot of value and the things that we discuss in this episode of the designed podcast.

0:01:25 [begin interview]

Pete: Nancy, welcome to the design podcast. How are you?

Nancy: I'm well, thank you so much. Hello everyone. 

Pete: It's great having you, uh, how you been?, are things are going well?

Nancy: Things are, well, a Vancouver, it's a, you know, West Coast living, we're wearing sandals, flip flops, that kind of thing. We could do our work in the backyard, uh, if it's not raining, but it is today. But, um, but yeah, everything is well and uh, still loving what I do. Yep. It's all good. 

0:01:54 [Nancy Wu background]

Pete: Oh, fantastic. Uh, speaking of which, can you give us a background and tell us about, um, you as a creative, as a designer in what your involvement with academia is? 

Nancy: Sure. Um, well backing up, um, when I was in high school, my art teacher said you should go to [a] university and get a fine arts education. So of course I thought, yeah, I'll do it because you said so. And you know, a year and a half into it, I was doing a lot of printmaking and life drawing the usual stuff at [a] university. But, um, you know, I was very technical in how I thought and I was into the details and I had  students as well as instructors saying, you shouldn't be here. I thought, well, where should I be? They said, you should go to Capilano College and it's now a university. All the colleges and the Vancouver area have now gone to university status, but they said, you should go to North Bend to Capilano, add on, and see what they're doing. I thought, oh, just give it a whirl. And my dad drove me there. I took a look and I came out and he thought I saw a ghost because he said I was like shaking. You know, when I came out and he goes, what's wrong? I said, nothing's wrong. It's just I need to quit all my university courses and get to this college like asap. And so that’s what I did. 

They were doing things, I had no idea that they were doing it that high level in north Vancouver and North Vancouver, it's kind of a suburb of Vancouver. And you know, this was a good 27 years ago when I went to school and things were different. But nevertheless, uh, the people who led the program at the time, um, John Long and, uh, El Zimmerman, they went to Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California, and so they wanted to recreate that in, uh, Vancouver, in the Vancouver area and bring that higher level of education, not just from, uh, educators, but people who are still in the field. So they'll have people who are practicing designers, photographers and so forth at the time teach classes alongside those who are there for full time education. And so when I saw that and I saw the level of work they were doing, I really wanted to be there. 

So I changed gears and you know, I always liked illustration when I was young and I was going to be an illustrator, but when I thought they were doing type of graphically and design wise, I really wanted it, I was hungry for it. And so that's what led me to, uh, getting a career in design and the way that, um, I went and did the program. And then in [my] final year, you know, we're very competitive. The year we were in. And it's a good kind of competition where you're competing with your other classmates to just kind of bring up the level. But I knew that they were all watching each other to see what each other was doing. And at the time in Vancouver, if you wanted a good job, you wasn't, or you weren't gonna be an intern, you would do government jobs like, uh, working at BC ferries and you'd be like directing, you know, ferry traffic, but you'd be out in the freezing cold, that kind of thing. Uh, or one time I was offered a job, 25 bucks an hour when I was a student. I thought, great, but it was moving blood bags. I thought, no, that's not what I want. So what I did was in my final year of school, and I tell, I told this to the faculty now that I ironically teach there, but I told them that I skipped that of classes to get my portfolio around so I can get an internship in summer just to know if I want it to do this design thing. 

And um, you know, that's what began the career of, um, working really hard in school and then getting the right kind of breaks. Like, I, I don't deny the fact that, um, you know, I didn't try to have an ulterior plan other than to do the best work I could. Um, and at first I want it to be the best designer in Vancouver, but that's kind of, you know, ridiculous. But then I thought, you know, I want to be the best as I can be for myself. And that is what I still hold true to. And, um, you know, so since then I've had experience working in house. I've worked at different agencies, small studios, um, and I've been a freelancer now for, well, I've always worked, even when I was working full time, I always did stuff on the side. So I have no idea when I wasn't doing any design work other than, you know, the year I was pregnant with my son, I didn't work for six months, but that was about it. 

0:06:00 [value of an internship]

Pete: Wow, Uh, the, the internship, you know, you talked about the value that internship, you want to reflect on that? Uh, just a little.

Nancy: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think, uh, you know, depending on where you come from, some schools here in Vancouver are more art, um, art, uh, focused, you know, more process about, um, you know, having the artistic focus in your work. But the school that I went to is very much about getting employment and give you the training and all the skills that you need to get a job. And you know, one thing that's really great at Capilano university is that, um, an internship is part of your program in fourth year. Now when I went to school, it was only a three year program. So if you want an internship you have to do it yourself. And so what I did was I, you know, skipped out of class his pretending I was doing something or other or I was sick and because people were watching what everyone else was doing. 

And so I brought my portfolio to um, a small shop at the time, which got absorbed by nature unsee and I bought my portfolio and just wanting to get feedback from the art director, not knowing it, they are hiring. And then the next day I got a call saying, can you come after school? And then I met with them and then I basically got the internship for the summer and that quick. But I found out later that they were, so the art director was so stressed out, she said, if you don't get another body in here, I'm quitting. So it was, again, it was just timing. You know, if I, if I came a week before they'd go over to, they did a look at it. If I came after all, we already got someone. So that's literally how I got my internship and I chose it because I didn't know if I wanted to do this. 

I really honestly wasn't sure. And I loved it and I still love it. But, um, you know, the school wasn't going to tell you for sure what kind of job I was going to have. I was the one that would have to choose it, you know, whatever I want it to do. And at the time in Vancouver, you know, the design community was extremely small. You know, now you pick up a rock and you throw it and oh, I hit a designer. That's how many are here. It feels like that. Anyways. Um, so what it did was, you know, I made that choice to have an internship and went through it for three years and it was in the period of, you know, doing waxing, waxing, paste up, uh, PMT cameras. And when I say this stuff, some of you guys watching this are going to go, oh yeah, I remember that. 

And others are gonna go, I don't know what the heck you're talking about. You know, but you could watch that movie design means, or no graphic means, um, that wonderful movie by, um, I forget the educator in Portland. Um, Blair Levit. Blair Levit. Yes. At Blair. Hello. She's awesome. And I'm glad that she made a, uh, a documentary like that because that's what I remember. And so it is, you know, and I, and I did, ended up working for the summer and then I was offered a full time job there to stay. And I still had another year to go and I was really kind of torn what to do. And I ended up asking my mom and my mom's not in the design at all. She's like, you know, homemaker, five kids, that kind of thing. And I told mom my, my, my dilemma and she said, you know what, you went to school for a reason. 

Um, if they really want you that bad, the job will still be there after you graduate or some job like that. But if you went to school for a reason, then you finish it is school wasn't your priority then take it. But you know, you might regret missing out on certain things, you know, and it's not just even missing out education that's missing out those experiences because, um, unbeknownst to me, my mom said to me, I was smart enough that I could skip grade three. And she said no, cause then Nancy's going to be younger than the rest of her classmates. So now I'm going to keep her in grade three. And I laughed because I told my mum grade three is when I learned fraction. So that was like, I love fractions. I still live. Um, you know, so things like that. So I did end up finishing my education and no regrets. You know, I still did get a job out of school. So that being said, Yup. 

0:09:50 [what shapes who you are]

Pete: Well, those fractions. Yeah. Well, those fractions, uh, I mean, if it wasn't for that word, proportion in design, you know, those fractions. Gotta you gotta love that.

Nancy: Oh yeah. You know, it's, it's like I, you know, I always tell people that there's different experiences that we have in life, whether it be work or life related, but you pick up all the good stuff along the way and you keep it to your heart and the stuff that wasn't good or wasn't helpful, ignore it and throw it out. And that's what shapes who you are.

0:10:15 [throwing rocks at designers]

Pete: Um, couple of the notes that I took that I wanted to talk about, um, throwing rocks and hitting designers, uh, um, I think that's fantastic. I'm going to use that as one of my timeline kind of indicators. Um, but yeah, about that, through throwing rocks and hitting designers. Um, we're producing a lot of students with degrees in graphic design as well as many other arts in, you know, other professions as well. Um, I don't know where I stand on that. I'm kind of a, I'm definitely concerned. Um, and I talk to students and I let them know that in this classroom of let's just say 16 as our good old round number, that's this class. How many other classes are there? How many other students are there? Freshmen, sophomore, juniors and seniors in this university. And then I tell them, guess what? There's a university down the street and then there's one down the block and then there's one across town. And then there's one in the other state in the US, in Canada, abroad. Um, yeah, we're, we're putting out a lot of talented, very talented young, uh, designers. And that's, that's something concerning, you know, I don't know. I don't know where we, I don't know if the right word is stop, but I don't know. I don't know where we are on that. But these young designers are being asked more and more. Um, so, uh, any thoughts on, on that? 

Nancy: Well, interesting thing. I, you know, I was sharing with you earlier, I had a low end work and uh, you know, there's little things I want to do and, and it's that kind of thing. You have a list of things you want to do if you have time. So I had time and as a subscriber of communication arts, I thought, you know, the entire archive of Communication Arts magazine is available online for free if you're a subscriber. So I thought I got to go all the way to 1959 and just flip through every single issue. And at 1971 right now, but it's flipping through it. And it was funny because at first he laughed at the ads that they had about, you know, setting type using this dry transfer stuff or these cameras or these pens or whatever. But the long, the shorter that to me was that the impression was a commercial design or graphic design was more male dominated as we know.  It was also a trade. It was, it wasn't, um, artistic really, you know, it was more production focused even though they'd never say that. But you know, there's a certain kind of skillset as well as interest. Um, you know, we live in a very, very different age now where girls can grow up to be whatever they want to a certain extent, you know, whether it be circumstance, whether it be, um, you know, let's not kid ourselves, uh, you know, financial opportunities or being at the right place at the right time. You know, people have said to me, what's it like being a female designer? And I go, well, the fact that I float in tubes is great, but I just saw myself as a designer. Right. So that's how, you know, I always approached everything and you know, some people have different choices. Like I admit that I'm not fashion forward because I'm designed forward. I've always loved it and still will. 

Um, you know, I'm still, I got a husband, I didn't have to dress up to get married, but, you know, I, it's, you know, it's, he's creative in the creative field too. So, um, you know, your priorities are different, but I felt that, you know, now it's everything from more accessibility of social media. The fact that, you know, someone said to me, well, computers are fun now and doing design is fun now. Before it was, you know, we had to like do a lot of technical work, you know, perfecting things, getting it done really quickly, and it was just a different kind of trade. And I think if we went back to that, um, kind of way of doing things, I'm sure that people would, would not want that. They're not interested in that. But also designed, there's different areas of it too because not just as an educator, but just seeing the professions of when you start off as designed, you can go into strategy and branding. As a strategist, you can go into UI or UX and be a web designer, you could design app, you can do our direction for advertising or television or film, movie titles that you name it. There are so many different professions that grow out of having a design background. Um, and that, that never happened before. Before it was pretty much you did stuff that was in print for a newspaper, for um, advertising. You know, there was way more poster work, but you know, print was the thing and now it's everything. So. 

0:14:48 [internship, if you want it, go get]

Pete: Right, right. And you'd get a little bit of broadcast stuff in there, you know, but, but that was about it. Um, you know, talking about internships, I was surprised to hear that the program was three years. So if you wanted the internship, you had to kind of go get it.

Nancy: Well no one really talked about internships so, so that's why I was curious about it. And I asked if it was offered and they said no, not at this time. And I thought, well, how am I going to get one if I don't do it myself? It's that kind of thing that happened a lot where you couldn't get a job because you had no experience. And it's like, well, how can I get experience if no one will give me a job? Like it's, it's that, you know, that vicious cycle that we all hate, but it's there. 

0:15:28 [internships, how soon]

Pete: Um, and I think that was really advantageous for you to, to, to pick up on that and, and attack that. But I'm, I'm wondering, as far as design education goes, our program, you know, has internship is one of the courses. You, you must have an internship. Um, and that's becoming more common. And a lot of universities, some universities are shying away from it because it's difficult maybe on, depending on their location to actually get students into internships. Um, we're not a remote campus, by all means. We're about 30 minutes outside of Little Rock. But as far as Arkansas is considered, um, it's, it's fairly remote. There's not a lot of big cities like in New York or Philadelphia or, uh, Pennsylvania or Massachusetts or anything like that. It's not an east coast, west coast kind of environment. Uh, there is some travel time between cities. There are very, uh, there's less bigger cities, but anyhow, 30 minutes outside of Little Rock. But our students don't seem to have that problem of eagerness to take on an internship or even define one. We're other universities. I hear of students constantly, um, being disappointed because someone's not finding an internship for them. That's a whole other discussion. But our students are going abroad for internships. Our students are going across the country for internships. Um, I believe, uh, even in into Canada, I can't verify that, you know, right off the top of my head, but I think I recall, uh, that conversation.

Anyhow, I think what I'm wanting to ask you is what of internships were sooner? Now there is a certain amount of skillsets that uh, a student would need to enter an internship to be at least productive, but are there things that they could be involved with that are not computers, skillsets that could still make them valuable on internships? I'll even use an example. I have a student right now who are pro so I got to give you a little bit of um, context. Our program is a BA in studio arts or a BFA in studio arts. All students come in as BA students. They have to pass a sophomore review. Then they have to put in, submit an application to the BFA program and be accepted into the BFA program in order to do an emphasis area such as graphic design. Currently I have a student that is just finishing his sophomore year, uh, and he's going to be putting him together his sophomore review in the fall. He's out there doing internships and I actually got an email from the place that he's doing an internship with that was hopeful that we could give him an internship course credit. Long story short, I think it's great that he's out there and he's getting that experience and then he's going to do more internships obviously because we have to, you know, go through that official internship for them. What are your thoughts earlier the better? Should they wait? What do you think? 

Nancy: it's a mixed bag because I think that, I remember when I was working full time at ad agencies and we'd have different internship or interns from different schools come in and there would be everything from like when I was an intern, you know, I, I got to do work as well as observed, but um, you know, anything that was low risk, that's what we'd be allowed to touch. Um, other times I be trained by people who knew how to current, so I'd be shadowing them on a project and just seeing it go from, you know, beginning to fruition. Um, but interns that I had at the agency, some of them just had no way of doing anything or they're terrible listeners. Like there was one in particular I remember that she could not follow direction. She, you know, people would ask her to do stuff and she'd always do it wrong or just, it was like head was in the clouds and I said, let me try something. So I typed an email to her telling her exactly what I wanted and she did it to a t and I said, she, she's better at taking direction from reading it, but she just couldn't hear it or take it in. Um, but it's that kind of thing where, you know, I think that you do need to kind of get your hands dirty, but at the same time, can an agency or a studio or shop risk having someone who's really green, um, in their skill set to do something without having to either, you know, cause any permanent damage, you know, or just even slow down the day to day. 

Because the number one feedback I got like, um, a Capilano I did a mentorship as well as advising students on their fourth year portfolios and the feedback that I got after they did their internships, the number one response was things in the real world go really fast. We need to be pushed to go faster. And you know, I, that was something that I wasn't surprised about because um, you know, when you talked about all the, all the, uh, you know, grads going out into the market, you know, in April, that's when I get quiet because all the grads are like other getting the internships or they're getting scooped up by all the different shop ton agencies. So I ended up getting quiet workwise but then later on it's like, you know what, there've been times where I get called in going and intern with starting this, they were really struggling with it and now we only have two days left. Can you fix it? So I have to like go in there and just, you know, be a fixer, then pop right back out once it's done. So that's where, you know, at least, you know, they're given the chance to do it at the same time, you know, every place is going to be different. 

And in terms of how much responsibility they can give them. I was having this conversation, you know, with some friends of mine, yesterday's, you know, I was watching um, a chef's papal on Netflix and I was watching one of the shafts and he has got an innovative way of getting his, uh, you know, interns as at work, you know, experience in the kitchen. And the model that we have for internships for design is where, you know, they have to do all the, you know, grant work at the beginning, you know, errands, paste up the easy stuff, looking for stock images that they're always having to do that look up stuff, help pull this together, but they don't actually do the finish work. And this particular chef chef's table, I think he's like in Sweden or Norway, he would say to the, like the juniors and the kitchen, watch what I'm doing. 

I have all this stuff that I cooked perfectly as a higher level head chef. I'm going to play it right now. Watch me. And he plates it perfectly and he goes, now you have to present it to the table. And then they've learned to present perfection and bring it right to the table and then they go, great, okay, now you have to play this herself after watching me do it. So they're given that opportunity to go from the very bottom bright to the very top because ultimately it is the end result that they're aiming for. You know, it was always a believer in Salem to a degree. I love the idea of process of the idea of getting to the finish line, but the thing is, the process is wonderful and great, but if at any point you let part of that process fall or slip or slide, you're never going to get to that end result. So it's actually the end result that you're focused, you know, always have your eye on the prize. Never lose sight of that, you know? 

Pete: I like that. Yeah. Now that's, that's an interesting way to look at it. Um, I think it's a beautiful model for internships and I think it's even a good model for the classroom. Um, you know, uh, where, uh, we as educators and most educators have been through the profession, uh, prior to getting into education. Uh, but if we can, you know, show them the presentation, show them the end, uh, and then by the means that we got there. I think that's, I think that's really valuable. 

0:22:55 [here’s a freebie]

Nancy: Yup. Here's a Freebie I'm going to give you, um, I might get in trouble, but maybe not cause it, um, it was another school I was teaching at and we were brainstorming one day of what the program could be. Uh, this program ended up not actually coming to fruition at the school, so it never got used. But it was a really genius idea. And that was the idea that if they could get instructors who are in the field, you know, like get a bunch of different teachers but they'd only teach one class a week for example, or you know, one, you know, not a lot of commitment so they could still focus on their, their full time jobs. But if they treated the classroom like an agency where they got agency experience and students would be dealing with real world problems in a real, you know, kind of a fake school slash agency atmosphere, could they have a better transition from school into the real world? And it was a genius idea. I thought it was great as also ambitious though, because how do you structure that in a way that, you know, all the different moving parts, how can you guarantee that it's going to work and that and that. But again, it was just a discussion and yet I thought if anyone could pull that off that I should be pretty innovative. You know, because school's always been the same all the way through. That doesn’t mean it should stay that way?

0:24:08 [interns, different needs]

Pete: I mean I try to get as close to that as possible. I try to get, um, clients kind of come in as faux clients or agencies come in and act as the faux client. Um, and, and we try to work, you know, within parameters that the industry's used to that real world experiences. Like, um, do you see any lack of skill sets or, or different things that are needed for interns as you've experienced them over the year, years, not just one year, but years? 

Nancy: Yeah, I mean, it's a tricky thing because every intern is different. Every person's different. And I think that mature, you know, maturity levels are really tricky one too because, um, you know, at the time I was teaching and I was warned about a particular student who was really like, she's a lovely person, but she was really into like kittens and Unicorns like just.... And it's like, I know you love it, but you know, like people, all the other teachers kept saying, she's like doing her own thing, not with saying, not taking direction in class and she's like dying here. But you know, good luck with that kind of thing. Right. And I thought, well, let's just listen, listen a little bit. And in a weird way, becoming a mother has made me a better designer because I've learned to pick your battles but also really learn to, you know, troubleshoot the problem. And I took her aside and you know, I was having problems with that class as well. But I said to her, I said, you know what, I'm not telling you not to love what you love. If you love rainbows and kittens and Unicorns, go for it. But the reality is in the real world, they're not going to accept that and you're not going to be able to get a job and you're not going to be able to stay employed if you're doing your own thing all the time. Instead of doing what the directive is, still do what you want to do, but do it on your own time. But focus on the work and still continue what you love. And her face just lit up because every other teacher said, no, you can't do that anymore. And I said, no, do it, but just don't do it at work. You know, if that's, if that is what the brief is.

0:26:08 [art and design, art versus design]

Pete: Well, well, yeah, I mean that makes complete sense. We have students regularly that have their, their passion, they're in a cultural trend or you know, following something that's very prominent in their world, uh, and things that they love and they get so immersed in it. It becomes what they do as their, um, student work, right as their answer to the problem. So I think if we can, um, well, you know, go back to that model of having those clients come in the folk clients and give real world situations where they can't answer that with, you know, kittens and rainbows and Unicorns. Um, it helps, it helps take that out. But if you give too much leeway of saying, Hey, great, let's do a poster and you get to pick whatever it is you want to do the poster for. Um, I, I think that definitely starts to, to put them down that path of, you know, that problematic portfolio piece where people look and it's like, well, what did you solve with this particular problem? And you know, so there's maybe not in that, um, this is a question that I've been asking all the design educators. Um, and I'm gonna ask you as well to see what your, your thoughts are, uh, art and design or art versus design. 

Nancy: Um, that's a tricky one. Um, I'm not, I'll just say a caveat right now. I'm not really well immersed in the art scene in Vancouver, so I can't speak for artists. Um, I did have a fine art background when I first started and oftentimes it was, you know, learning about shape and form as well as a personal self expression. You know, I've had, uh, an art class where a student was talking about this piece that visually it's like, oh, I don't even know what that is. And then they broke down in class because they were very emotional and was having a cathartic experience in design. That can happen too. But if it has a certain of function because you know what the client is art-related and wants personal expression, then that's appropriate for that. But if it's someone trying to sell a car, maybe not, you know, and that's where that art and design, they have their boundaries and yet they can also have their overlap too that I think that, you know, it's funny cause you know…

I sometimes like watching cheesy like entertainment tonight shows or you know, those kind of things. And I find it interesting that people want so badly to let it be an actor or be a singer and do those kinds of things. And once they hit all the goals that they want, what do they do? I'm going to go start painting. You have to take a year off and painting and to do sculpture, you know, and it's like, well, but why didn't you do that first instead of becoming an actor? Well now I can afford to take a year off. Right. So that becomes the other side of it. Is Art more because it's more self-serving? Is it not paying the bills versus design that does pay the bills? Cause as a commercial enterprise where you charge for that. Whereas art is based on value. Is it worth that much money because that person is either not making any more or it's a one off piece. Like you know, again, I really want to stress that there are some artists who are going to go, Ooh, like what she's saying is killing me. Just like stop it now. But you know, 

0:29:24 [students have passion]

Pete: Well, well, I'll, I'll make them hate me as well because a small story. Um, uh, a young artist that I know just had a bit of a, um, expressive release, if you will, on social media. She just had an art show and she intentionally intentionally priced all her pieces under, uh, $20 with the most expensive one being $30. And she brought, I don't know, somewhere between, I think I, I'm going to use a round number, 60 to 80 pieces to this art show. And the average price was $5 a piece. Okay. She didn't even sell enough to cover her overhead and she intentionally priced these at the lowest price that would just cover, you know, um, taking care of producing the work. Um, she didn't cover that and she actually had people steal some of the pieces, even $5 pieces. So yeah, the, the idea of value to art, you know, and that then you turn around to the commercial design world and you know, you could turn around and get a $5,000 price tag on a logo design, which, you know, a logo design answers the world's problems obviously. Um, and I'm joking obviously on that, but, uh, you know, it's, it's just, it's very interesting and sometimes we need art to, to design and we need designed to influence, um, our, our thoughts on art. But they, they compete as, as well, you know, they, they really kind of butt heads so much. So anyhow, so now they hate me too. So you can continue to kind of elaborate on, on your side?

Nancy: I don't know what more to say other than the fact that I think that they can live happily separately as well as together. But, you know, given the appropriateness and the context of it, I think that's a key part. 

0:31:25 [print/digital]

Pete: Yeah. Um, well I'll throw this one at you too. Then. Print, print and digital. Uh, I don't want to say print versus digital because there's no comparison to kind of put them head to head. Um, what does one influence the other, um, do, and I've had varying comments on this as well. So print, slash, digital, I won't even put an “and” “or” in there.

Nancy: Yup. Um, you know, I had lunch with a friend yesterday who was saying that, uh, she works at a marketing company and she said that there's way less print being done now, way more digital work. Um, they're still busy, but it's just the, the work is different. And yet when I go to Japan, there's tons of print print everywhere, you know, it's still still very alive and well. Um, and you know, printing itself has also changed just like magazines for example. Like, uh, there's way more independent magazines now that are designed in such a way that they're, they're not like a cheap $6 magazine. It's like a $40 magazine, but there's no ads in it. And to keep her, once you read it, you're going to be read it again and you're going to keep it forever. So the model of magazines different, the model of printers, different, um, digital printing. 

I remember, you know, maybe 10 years ago, digital printing was gross. It was greasy. It was, it looked bad. It was very streaky. And yet now with the indigo press, it's like phenomenal. And you know, I recently did a project, a little self promotion here, a little calendar I did with um, Mitchell press in Vancouver. And there was a project that we did to promote their digital press. And you know, when I gave it out to people, you know, it was done as a self promo piece. They were astounded that digital has gotten so far. So, you know, digital is changing as much as um, print is changing. Um, and the market changes too. Cause in Vancouver there's a fair amount of real estate that's happening here, but there's ebb and flows of different things. And then also education, you know, there's always going to be a need for print for those kinds of things.

Um, you know, and also it depends on who the target audience has because you know, my mom, she still will never know how to program VCRs or whatever. And you know, thankfully she does not even understand what the Facebook is, which is great, you know, um, that's fine, but it doesn't make her life any less fulfilling. But she still likes to have printed things. So you know, it's, it's gonna be a different, a different kind of, um, approach for it. Um, the other thing too is, uh, that thing that goes cyclical where I love the idea of being able to save money and being able to read, uh, magazines on my iPad. So there are times where I subscribed to UK magazines that would cost an arm and a leg to get, but you know, I could get creative review I think, and there was a French magazine a tap set is able to subscribe to, but then the, um, you know, the, the iTunes subscription, they stopped running it or they stopped doing a digital version. What happens to all those issues? And I'm not smart enough to figure out where it's embedded in my hard drive or on my iPad. But as soon as they stopped production of these digital reading materials, it was gone completely. That's where, again, you go, you know what, I wish I had a printed version of it. And that's where people, I know, they go, you know what, other than a fire or you know, bedbugs killing books or whatever, print is still more tangible and more longer lasting than digital. If you have a catastrophic hard drive failure, if the cloud suddenly disappears for reasons unknown, you still have a physical version. So that's, that's my side of things. 

Pete: Yeah. And our generation is, you know, crossing over from, like you said, paste up and having to do understand what strip up is in waxing and all that other, this rubbed down type all the way to what we have today. Um, it's funny because I find myself, when I go out, uh, the other day I was doing some shopping for kayaks and I ended up needing, oh gosh, okay, now I need a roof rack. And um, the sales guy was like, oh, we've got some of the best roof racks. Here's this brand. They're awesome. And I was like, Oh wow, that'll be great. And I said, do you have a brochure? And he handed me this beautiful printed brochure that was so fantastically done, right. That brochure sitting on my counter somewhere. And every time I tried to remember about which roof rack components I want, I pick up my iPhone or my iPad and I literally Google it and start looking at it there when I could walk across the room and pick up that brochure. But I love that brochure and I love that print piece, but I'm just not going to it. It's, it's an interesting, um, interesting place. So I, I wonder, you know, with the younger, younger designers, younger folks, younger people, if they're, if they're even curious if they're a brochure even exists, why would, why would I want a brochure? You know?

Nancy: Um, I mean there's still people who still love, you know, reading physical books. Like I, I have my favorites, you know, and um, even brochures too, like I have to get a brochure the other day cause we got new stairs and so we wanted to pick the same color, so you have to actually have it to physically look at. Um, there's certain things that will always just still need a print component, but it's also behavior based too because, um, you know, I'm friends with Marian Bantjes's, a well known, um, graphic artist and uh, you know, she's got a couple of books and I was reading her book, uh, you know, um, I wonder as reading at a couple of years and I was just reading it and then I wanted to flip the page in and the thing is I read on my iPad all the time. So I use both different mediums quite equally. 

And while I was reading Marian's book, I wanted to turn the page and instead of turning it, I devil tapped it on the corner. I thought, oh my goodness, what happened. Right. And I, I told her that I just sent her that message thing you'd never for something real funny happened. Um, and then she laughed. She thought it was great, but you know, it was my way to go. Oh by the way, can you autograph the book the next time I see you in Vancouver? Cause she lives on Bowen Island. And she went, sure. But you know, just being able to have that experience that happened where the whole digital and physical, those lines blurred. It made me laugh, but at the same time, I'm still gonna read a physical book because I like the touch. I like the sense of knowing how far I've gotten in that book, whereas I'll still get an ereader because it's cheaper or maybe it's easier to have a bunch of magazines in one device that I could bring along with me. So they all have their purposes. It's just whatever your preferences.

Pete: Yup, exactly. Yeah. Right, right. Print isn't dead, but it's definitely selective. Yeah. It's selective.

Nancy: No, it's just different. It's different. Yeah. 

0:38:07 [life-long learner, you gotta work hard]

Pete: Um, so you do have some involvement in academia. Um, I know that you're not a full time educator. Um, so for, for context into my next question then, can you give us a background of your involvement then in education?

Nancy: Um, so you know, I've taught at a couple of the different design schools in Vancouver. You know, I, I taught a course at one the first time that I was a terrible teacher. I'll say that right now because I was told by the powers that be to scare the students would be really tough with them because getting ready for the real world. And yet when I taught at my second school, I was given a directive to just make sure you cover this stuff but teach it the way you want. And I had a much better time of it. The second go round. And then now at Capilano, the thing that's, it's funny, I've been asked to teach there numerous times and I kind of put it off because being a baby, it's like, oh, I gotta drive all the way to North Vancouver. I go over a bridge and wow, wow.wow. 

But you know, I finally thought, you know, they keep on asking me and I keep on saying no, they're going to keep on asking me, so I'll give it a whirl. And I ended up loving it because even though the teachers are different and the students are different, it's exactly the same kind of vibe that I had when I went to school there in the way that, you know, work hard so you can play hard. You know, you, you know, it's not that all your dreams are going to come true when you go to Capilano. It's more you got to work hard, but yet, you know, you're in charge of your destiny and you can, you know, um, be able to have that, you know, not, not the family. We're brothers and sisters fight for the bathroom or you know, trash-talk one another. It's about family, where you can have support from your students or from your classmates, where you know, what do you think about this? And they're honestly going to help support you because they want you to get there as much as they do. Like it's a nice feeling to have that kind of support. And the teachers are like that really nurturing and the way that they want to give you everything that you need to know, but not to the point that they're going to babysit you because you do have to, at some point you're going to have to figure out how to do this herself. 

So those kinds of things are really important because, um, you know, like I still hear horror stories of everything from students who are, um, like someone said to me that, um, she saw portfolios that someone lightly ripped off work that I did and put it in their portfolios and she said, aren't you mad about that? I said, I'm actually more surprised that they would do something so stupid like that because it's something that's very published. Why would they put it in their portfolio? But someone I spoke to yesterday was saying that people have actually scanned, well known work out a DNA d annuals and put it in their portfolio without even retouching it. And they go, well, did you do this? Yeah. It's like, did you really do this? We'll know, but this is the kind of work I want to do. Why would you put it in your portfolio? Like I'd hear stories like that would, that would just blow my head off because it's like, you know, I guess it'd, I love it too much, but it's like if there's things that we can do to help educate students and just to kind of steer them in the right way, then it'll make the world a better place. But also give people a better design education because granted there are a lot of designers who are self taught and I've met some amazing ones who are amazing people, really good at what they do, but they felt the school wasn't for them whether they couldn't afford it or whether they couldn't invest four years of their life into it. 

Different reasons. Some of them, you know, they're also, some people learn really well on the job cells and you know, and I've learned so much on the job too, so I can't deny that part. But in the classroom, if there's things that you know, that we can all do, whether it be students allowing themselves to make mistakes and accept it, because, you know, we live in a world where, um, you know, you don't learn unless you make mistakes and it's okay to make mistakes. And yet when you're in the real world, if you make a mistake, you're fired, you know? Or even bullying. Like I have an issue that how elementary school kids are like, oh, be good to one another and pink shirt day and no bullying. And yet in the real world, there's bullying happening all the time. But it's like, why is it just reserved for certain age groups or certain areas, but not for everyone. Like, I can go on about this, you know, but, but you know. Hmm. Yep. 

0:42:58 [community]

Pete: Yeah, yeah. Well, community, you know, that's the word that comes to my mind, community. And, uh, as I explained to students, the design world, the community of designers is very close, very close knit. Yes, there is the competition. Yes, there is the, the bullying there is the, you know, strive to succeed. Um, because we all have to…

Nancy: Well, I don't see bullying in design though. I'll just say right now I'm talking about bullying in a general sense, but I've never seen it in design.

Pete: Oh, good. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I, yeah, I think how I was kind of, uh, putting it into the conversation is the competition, you know, um, it's, it's very cutthroat. Um, agencies will compete for the same clients many times. Um, but as I, as I tell students, the community is so close knit, um, they know what each other are doing. You know, there's, there's designers that will, um, you know, leave one agency, go across the street to another agency, work there for 10 years and everybody's still friends, you know, and everybody still goes to dinner together in conferences to get together and design competitions together. Um, and everybody kind of knows what's going on out there. So, um, to do something like, you know, put some plagiarize work and your portfolio is very dangerous. Um, but I think as you were talking about the model, um, of that university, the community, the aspect of community in that school is what kind of helps it stand out, what kind of make it makes it a, a, a better, uh, experience. Right?

Nancy: Yeah, I think so. I mean even, you know, like I said 28, seven years ago I graduated, but I'm still friends but not with everyone but because people lose touch and stuff like that. But you know, I have a friend that lives in Victoria, in Ireland off Vancouver that I worked with for three years. Another friend is now in Sweden. Stay in touch like just another one is now doing motorized bikes in California and teaching like just, you know, whenever you can, if you're able to stay in touch with people that you know, you went to school with who are still in the profession, that's a wonderful thing. When that happens. And some people for reasons other, you know, they might go, you know what I discovered, I don't really want to do this or I've made choice, different choices in my life. I know of a well known designer that ended up becoming, um, a baker and then go into French cooking school and then now is living in France. 

So like, life takes you on different detours, but you know, it's still those kinds of things that still make us human or whether it becomes, you know, the fact of being parents, like, um, you know, my husband and I have a son and we worked from home and yet we discovered that in Vancouver there's a lot of people in the same boat where they love what they do and they have a profession, but they want to be there for their families. They want to be there for their kids instead of, you know, rushing from one thing to another and dropping their kids off and just having other people care for them. You know, I do want to be in my son's life. I'm the same way that my parents were there for me. 

0:46:00 [advice for educators]

Pete: That's wonderful. Um, you know, speaking about that, that advice to pass down and, and to be there for your son and so on. I think about advice for us, design educators. Uh, what advice would you have for a design educators as they're preparing this next generation of young designers to come out of school?

Nancy: There's a lot of things. Um, you know, again, like I said, becoming a parent has taught me a lot of different things. Um, I, I tell the story over and over again, but it's a true story. Um, but both my husband and my son have ADHD. So, you know, there were challenges in terms of um, seeing focused on things in school, getting that motivation to get work done. It's still an ongoing thing, but it's better. But you know, at first when it happened I was kind of like, oh, I have to get used to change all the time in my life. And you know, I'm not a rigid person now, but I know that oftentimes people are like, if the due dates on Friday, I'm going to get it done Wednesday. I'm not gonna touch it. It's like set in stone. But there are some people I know that right before the presentation, even an hour before they're still refining things and getting it better. And I go, how can you live like that? It's like we want it to be the best it can be. And this idea came up later, so be it. But I still want to try and, you know, slip it into that presentation. So the idea of ADHD, I mentioned that because I'm more used to change now than I am in rigidity. 

So I think the same thing goes for teachers are some teachers that I've met. When I first taught, I wanted to get the whole outlet of the whole course done and nailed down and finished. And yet there's some teachers that go, you know what, I'm just going to set up the first two classes for now and see how it goes and then I'm going to write the next ones as they go. That sense of being really fluid I think is really necessary for educators because every group of kids are different. Every dynamic is different. Also, you might discover that last year's class was I really go getters and they were hungry and got bored easy. So I have to like really accelerate what I was learning. But this year's, you know, they need a little bit more. Got To slow it down a little bit and be able to explain things better because you know, there's a certain kind of education where it's like, here's how someone else did it, copy it. But it's other kinds of education where it's like, here's a theory or here's some understanding of how this works. Apply it to your thing. Now understanding what you know. So education even in itself is a different kind of animal and whatever you're teaching, whether it be something that's very rigid that will never change — serif and sans serif or variable fonts. I was talking to someone about it and it blew their mind. They didn't even know that existed. But going to typecon last year, for example, that's where I saw it live in front of me going, holy cow, this is real folks. And now I'm seeing it. I'm actually playing with it and I'll explain it to another instructor and they go, I have no idea what you're talking about. It's like, but it's happening now. You gotta you gotta know about this. And if you don't know about it, like we're not geniuses even though we think we are. But you know, we can't know everything. 

And really good advice I got from, there's two, uh, professionals who taught at the school that I first taught at. And I was terrified of teaching at first because, you know, I'm not a big public speaker. I still, I still get shy and stuff like that, but I love what I do that I think the passion thing takes away the shyness. But I said, you know what, if I don't know stuff in there asking me questions, I go, you don't, you can't know everything to say, I don't know what that is, but I'm going to try and find out and I'll get back to you on it. You know, I think honesty goes a long way that we can't know everything. And the best part of teaching is that I can instill what I've experienced or learned and pass it on to students. But I think I, I learned things from them as well. It's ongoing and that lifelong learner thing, that's where it comes back to the beginning. Yeah. 

Pete: Yeah. I think I'm a lifelong learner as well. I'm diving into some of the new formats for, um, screen devices and the different tools for that. So that's been a really interesting, it's also, um, daunting and even looking at, um, three d rendering software. Like Maya, I remember the first time I opened it up, I almost like, you know, had a panic attack, you know, somebody help and uh, and just hit apple queue, you know, as quick as I could. But, um, um, you know, I'm opening that back up more often and trying to look at that and different rendering stuff. 

But, um, I'll contest to that statement about being open because every semester and I used to be and I kind of still am that does an educator where everything is done. Here's my syllabus, here's my structure, this is what we're doing this week, this week, this week and so on and so forth. Um, but I am never able to, you know, I can stick to subject manner, but I can't stick to a timeline. I can't really stick to certain projects and it does have to be kind of this, well, here's what I would love to accomplish. Let's see where it goes. And I'm finding myself becoming more of a, more of an, uh, open-ended educator and kind of catering to the students that are in front of me because they all come with different experiences and different backgrounds and you can't just inter at some point and expect, then you're just going to continue on from there or have an end point goal either. It all has to vary. Um, so I think that's really interesting.

0:51:12 [advice for students]

Pete: Uh, I thought I wrote down another quick note along some of the stuff you're saying and I can't recall it right now, but that's neither here nor there. Uh, so advice then for the student and uh, they're getting ready, they're in their final year or just approaching their final year or they're graduating. Um, advice. I know that's an open ended question. Oh, short story. Short story. Um, I had a meeting with Milton Glaser with 10 students a few years back where we got to go to his studio in New York and we sat in there and it was really quiet. Uh, when he entered the room, of course he was late from lunch and uh, he sat down and kind of looked and everyone was one awestruck, you know, and jaws dropped and we're all like, wow. I'm like, well, I better break the ice. And I asked him a very similar question to what I just asked you and he leaned across the table and he put his arms on the table and crossed his hands and was like, I can't answer that question. Not with that type of context. I need more information. And he just went on a 10 minute explanation of how I need to refine my question. So I'm not going to refine my question. I'm going to leave it very open ended. 

Nancy: I forgot what your question was.

Pete: Yeah, I know. Right. Um, uh, so I'm not, well, I won't, I'll repeat it, but I won't refine it. 

Nancy: Yeah. Oh, thank you.

Pete: Uh, and I won't narrow it down any. And so the question was simply, what advice do you have for young students who are just about ready to graduate or entering their last year and they're going to be hitting the, the, that path to graduation or they've just graduated advice for those students

Nancy: Yep. Many things I would say. I never stopped learning, never stopped asking questions or being curious. Um, I've always been a kind of a curious person and if there's something you don't know, that's okay. Find out what it is. Um, you know, uh, there's people that you might not know personally, but there are a lot of people who are willing to help because we all have someone who helped us along the way of getting there. You know, I can name, no, I can't, I can't remember all their names, but there were numerous people along my journey as a young designer to now who gave me good advice along the way. And you know, I've done different talks in Vancouver, the last two talks I did. I quoted people, everything from former employers to colleagues who said things to me that I never forgot and they kind of became instrumental to, you know, how we do things or if I had an, you know, if I get stuck somewhere. 

Um, but always keep on looking and finding better ways of doing things, but not being selfish about it and not being, you know, like you don't need to put other people down to make yourself feel good about yourself, even though people, other people do it, you know, you focus on your, you know, keeping your eye on the prize kind of thing. I'm going to do a little comment here about education. I'm reading this book right now. 

Pete: “Now try something weirder.”

Nancy:  Thank you, “weirder,” I can't say that right now — by Michael Johnson. And I'm reading this book right now and you know, there's something that I read, uh, and it says, it goes like this. You learn your trade in your twenties, find your feet in your thirties and consolidate in your forties. You know, so use your time wisely in terms of your career, whether whatever age you're at use, you know, different phases of your career in a way that's going to be productive to kind of craft the kind of person you'll be. So this book was really good in terms of ideation, learning about the ins and outs of the world, real world experience of running a business. Well that's the thing that he mentioned that he goes, uh, hey, go set the pressure on designers and creatives to produce within months of leaving college, but it's okay to be a slow burner and quite where that puts me as, I write this in my fifties is another matter. I'm 52. 

So, uh, another one is the design method by Vancouver Designer Eric cars allude to, this is like a mentor in a book. I love this one. And then David Arie from the UK worked for money designed for love. So I, you know, there are certain books like there's, you know, design books that are out there that, you know, look at my 20 years of doing work. Look how cool I am. That's fine. But there's books like this about the real ins and outs of learning to be a designer. Um, whether you choose to work on your own Solo, whether you do a partnership with another designer, whether you work, um, which I recommend internships at an agency or, um, studio, maybe even a small one where you have to answer the phone and do all the work yourself. 

You'll learn the real, the real life part of it. Um, you know, keep on learning, keep on asking questions from people in the know. Um, and the thing that, you know, when I mentioned about, or what you mentioned about having a real world scenario in school, the different thing that happens in real life is that, you know, you'll have someone who from the profession who come to the school and says, I'm the client right now. This is what I want in the real world. There's politics. There's like, well, the client came in, I showed them the work and they didn't say a single thing because they'd have no opinion. They have to take it back to their client and say, do we love it or do we hate it? It's actually happened numerous times before. It's extremely stressful. But that happens. Also, understanding your clients sometimes isn't a bad guy.

They're just trying to do their job the best they can, the same way you are. So you know, instead of you lording over them. And I'm the designer, this is what I say, deal with it, understand where they're coming from and find a, you know, an a common ground. You know, and I think that designers coming out of school is, you know, sometimes they'll be in situations where they don't know how to take it because there might be two art directors fighting over something with totally different opinions. Where do you stand on it? Pay attention to what they're saying because it's not this guy's right or this guy's right. It's like, you know what? They're both right, but they're looking at it from totally different perspectives. So take a look, take a look around you, those kinds of things. Um, that, that a lot. Yeah, yeah.

0:57:18 [advice for students]

Pete: Oh gosh, that's wonderful advice though. I, I think it's valuable. Um, uh, another note that I just took down here is, um, lifelong learner. I think that that's a, a great, um, a great comment, um, to constantly be curious. Um, so as we get ready to wrap up, I wanted to ask you, what's next for you in the aspect of, of lifelong learning or the work that you're doing? Um, any more great calendars coming out or, or what's…

Nancy: Well this was done as a project. Uh, I was talking with Scott Gray at Mitchell press in Vancouver about how I hated printed promo pieces that are really neat. They put a lot of money into it, but they get thrown away. This is a perpetual calendar where it's using different printing techniques, digitally, different paper stocks, different typography, just to give a lot of type love to, you know, topographers that don't get, you know, the, not the Helvetica or the Gothams or the world. And then the other side has messages as well. And it's also a promo piece for the bindery company, the paper company, people who contributed the typefaces, myself and Mitchell and understanding about typography. But this was, it'll last forever cause it's perpetual. But the big thing is that came out of a what if conversation and those kinds of what ifs, if they can come to fruition for real, that's wonderful. 

Pete: that's beautiful. It's got a wonderful shelf life.

Nancy: But you can't stop doing those kind of what if things, but this came about because I did a talk at Capilano before I taught and one of the students said, do you do personal work? And I said, you know what, I don't do personal projects but I really should. And I ended up doing two last year and is hoping to do more this year. But, um, they didn't, they didn't happen. But I'm always keeping my eye out for doing collaborations with other creative people or printers or whatnot, just to do something that can be purposeful. Cause that's my biggest beef is things that, um, you know, that have, that are wasteful or just don't have a productive purpose. And you know, even as a logo designer, some logos I've had are still in use for over 20 years. Others, you know, they ended up living for about five and then they get, sometimes they'll do a piece that's just literally let's look more professional so we can be sold to another investor happens. Right. But I want to keep on doing what I can do as long as I can do it, as long as people ask me to do stuff. 

Pete: Yeah. That's great. Yeah. That's the passion, right? Designed for love. Yep.

Nancy: Yeah, yeah, Yup, Yup. Exactly. 

0:59:44 [where can people find you]

Pete: Um, where can people find your work or where they can find you or even reach out and say, Nancy, let's work together. 

Nancy: Yep. Um, well it's uh, on Instagram and Twitter it's Nancy Wu design all one word. Uh, Wu is spelled W U, NancyWuDesign, you could reach me that way. On Twitter. On Instagram, I'm quite active on Instagram and in terms of education, I'm actually doing a before and after series of logo design that I've done, joined the before of what I was tasked with an after. And I'll have some of the captions of that. Um, also, um, found on my Facebook page, I have a personal page Facebook page for all my friends of goofy things, but I have a business one as well, so you can find me. Nancy, we designed on Facebook. Um, and also Instagram. I'll also do stuff on stories where I explain a little bit of background at that because, um, you know, not just promoting myself because you know, even doing this for a long time, I get my ebb and flows of work so I've got to keep at it to be, um, promoting myself out there. But also being able educate people to what I do and why design is important and why, you know, like people just go, oh, you're an art person, or Oh, you're a graphic artist and you know, those are different professions. And being a design, a graphic designer where you're communicating, um, using the medium of graphic design to do that. 

Pete: Yeah. And I highly recommend everyone, um, that can and is willing to follow, um, follow your work on social media. I love that you're, you're sharing the process, uh, even from the, the sketching and brainstorming, all the way to application. 

Nancy: Yup. Oh yes. On my website, on my website I did sketching because simply I find that, um, it's easy for clients to just go, well, this make it look good, but I want to talk about the thinking behind it too, that I know that there's a fair amount of designers who will look at Pinterest and then their work looks like it came from Pinterest. And um, you know, I think it's good to look at Pinterest is to make sure that you're not doing something that's been done already, but that's where it ends. I think that the idea is still has to be generated from an original place and the sketching is your proof of that. But also that's what clients are paying for. They're paying for you to use your brain and think about these things and to vet the good and the bad equally. So. Yeah. 

Pete: Yes. Yet we have to communicate the right message and just using influence from, you know, Pinterest or other designers doesn't answer the question, doesn't solve the problem design as a plan. So we need to, we need to have a plan.

Nancy: And they realistically, you know, not everyone wants to go through that route of sketching or have the time and that's fine. But that's hopefully that's what can separate me from other designers because we all have our gifts in different places. So be it. Because I will have people who won't look for competitive quotes. I'll say, I love what you did. I saw how you do it. That's what I want for myself. But you know, can we negotiate how to make it affordable? Because for small businesses they don't have megabucks. So you know, we'll work on an arrangement so that we can respect one another in the end of the day that they still get a product that they can afford. But I'm not burning through mega hours in a, I'll note when I see it scenario, you know, we have to make it fair so that we can both be happy in the end and be able to move on to the next thing. 

Pete: So, yeah. And I think that does make you gifted. I think you have a gift. Yeah. You have a vision and you're an awesome creative. So, um, keep, keep doing the great work. It's awesome. Keep influencing the students as much as you can. Um, it's just keep being awesome. That'd be fantastic.

Nancy: Yeah. Well, I mean, the big thing, I love what you do because whether it be graphic design or you know, being a social media, social media blogger, whatever, love what you do because just because you have a computer and just because you think it's fun, that's not enough to be a designer. You have to really love it. The good and the bad. 

Pete: Yeah, definitely the good and the bad. Um, and seeing I mentioned Milton Glaser earlier. I'll use one of his lines, “Do good work.”  I've used that before in my podcast. I'll use it again. 

And, uh, Nancy, I can't thank you enough. I've had a great, great conversation. I know at first you're like, really? You want to interview me? You want to have a conversation with me? I was like, of course I do. You know? and, and it's been great.

Nancy: It's been great. Yep. I totally enjoyed it and thank you so much for thinking of me and everyone out there. Hope to see you as in Internet land. 

Pete: I thank you as well. Yeah. Internet land or, or conference land, you know. Well, definitely. Nancy, thanks again. Uh, I'll leave…

Nancy: Yup. Or Vancouver if you're in Vancouver, type brigade, we meet every couple of months. Emily Carr is going to be hosting the next one, but uh, you know, there's different activities happening in the Vancouver area, so look for them. 

Pete: Yup. Great. Yeah, I'll leave you with my tagline. So with your help, let's keep creating success in design education. 

Nancy: Great. Thanks so much. Bye. Bye.

Pete: I appreciate it. Yup. Bye now.

1:04:34 [music and outro]

Pete: Thank you for joining me on this episode. The DESIGNED podcast website is located at thedesignpodcast.com, there you can find notes on the episode, links to our guests, links to resources and more regarding the many things discussed during each show. If you find The DESIGNED Podcast interesting and informative please subscribe on Apple podcast or on your favorite podcast service. You can also follow the design podcast on Instagram and Facebook [and Twitter] and subscribe to our video version of the podcast on YouTube. Please join us for the next episode of The DESIGNED Podcast and let's continue to create success in design education.

1:05:15 [bumper and sound effects]

Links of note!

Where to find Nancy Wu online

Mentioned during the podcast

Music featured on this Episode

  • Opening and closing track: “Street Background Vlog Hip-Hop”

Where to find The DESIGNED Podcast

Where to find Pete Bella online

Contact The DESIGNED Podcast